And then theres his TV work, which includes episodes ofRomeandMasters Of Sex.
That it barely notices in the finished movie says a lot about Apted and his filmmakers skill.
I liked the way you grounded the film in a very modern, multi-cultural London.
I guess that was your documentary-making background coming through.
Theres a lot of that in everything I do.
Thats my heart and soul.
So was that what interested you in this project, then?
Youve got to believe that what youre seeing is happening.
I was attracted to the fact that it was a page-turner.
I just thought it was a page-turner.
What is the emotion of it?
Because I think thats something we need to hang onto relationships and so forth.
I always look for that, and take a stab at get that element out of actors.
I get their feeling about it whatever it is.
Because if you did it in a bad way, it could be kind of exploitative and nauseating.
No, youre quite right.
There are some films that I wont name that use terrorism in a quite ghoulish, unpleasant way.
How could they do it?
I spoke to my stunt coordinator, and I said, Look, they have to be quick.
They have to be speedy.
It gives the film a big burst of energy.
Once you overplay it, once they go on too long, you lose interest in it.
Also, you have the build-up to an action scene.
The anticipation, the tension.
Absolutely, thats right.
You say you havent made a lot of action, but you have made a lot of thrillers.
So what is your personal philosophy when it comes to building up suspense in a thriller?
I dont know whether theres a formula for it.
Where people arent quite ready for it.
So dont dress it up and dont over-prepare an audience for something.
In my subconscious, thats what Im trying to do.
Im trying to make it as much as a surprise as I can by backing away from it.
You have to be careful, because it could come out like a monotone and everyone will fall asleep!
[Laughs] But I think thats the challenge.
And I was so impressed with the way they did thatBournefilm.
I mean, when youre doing Bond and stuff, youve got to do it youve got to deliver.
When youre spending hundreds of millions of dollars, youve got to deliver spectacle.
You cant throw that under the carpet.
But when youre making a different kind of thriller, its a different game from doing a Bond film.
Therefore, the best way to surprise people is to understate it.
So that, when it happens, its a shock.
So it becomes more the John Le Carre school of thriller rather than blowing up a volcano or something.
I thought the script had that quality to it.
But the big thing is, at the end of the film you dont feel cheated.
You dont feel, That doesnt make any sense at all.
Why did that happen?
You have to cast against the obvious.
I think thats a good idea.
And that opening sequence was, as you say, to make the film credible.
What a multi-cultural city this is.
Saying what the quality of the city is this is what it is.
Its interesting to see locations that location directors dont tend to choose very often.
Like markets, housing association buildings, things like that.
We had to shoot it in Prague.
Make them modern, because I can do modern.
There are parts of Prague that look like London.
First of all I thought, Thats disappointing.
But when we came to choose the London locations with him, I understood what he meant.
I didnt scream London at you, but it was nonetheless London enough.
So he could fill in the gaps in Prague.
I have to say I didnt notice.
I didnt realise it was shot in Prague.
People have said to me they didnt realise.
I was only here [in London] for six days doing bits and pieces, you know.
But that was pleasing, to pull that one off.
How did you arrive on casting Noomi Rapace?
She was there before I was.
You couldnt have some wonderful actress who you knew instinctively couldnt knock some bloke on the head.
But she can do that.
I thought that was a great gift.
Not that she did it all we had to stop her, because she enjoyed doing it.
That was a crucial ingredient, and that was already a given.
If she hadnt been attached, I think it wouldve been much tougher.
You have an amazing supporting cast, too.
Lorenzo also knew Michael Douglas.
I loved Orlando [Bloom]…
I didnt know him but I met with him, and I really wanted him to do it.
I really wanted to get something out of him, and he got the message immediately.
All these kinds of annoying things, but he was right.
I initially said to him, This has to be you.
I want this to be you.
He wanted tattoos all over his face, and no one wanted that.
But he wanted tattoos, and we accommodated that up to a point.
I was pleased I really think he pulled it off.
We saw a side to him that you dont often see.
I liked Toni Collette, because she was originally written as a man.
I wanted another woman in the film who could offer comfort to Noomis character.
So it wasnt an all-male thing to have a woman in a position of power.
So I delivered Orlando, and the producers delivered Michael [Douglas] and Malkovich.
Noomi was there, so that was pretty much it.
Thats how it happened.
She was all over the place, but thats the way we did it.
There was some relationship, even if it was a bogus relationship.
That, to me, drags an audience into a film, if you see something between them.
To try and make them able to express themselves.
Would you recommend more directors make a documentary, assuming they havent already?
Oh, I think so, yeah.
Its interesting, because you learn from both ways.
The more I do it, the more I learn.
Not saying anything is sometimes the best way of trying to question someone.
Because they know why theyre there, and youre not going to help them, necessarily.
I dont mean being hostile to them.
So you learn that from documentaries and I can use that in movies.
But in movies, you have to learn how to structure something.
There are so many documentaries that dont have a structure.
They dont have any rhythm to them.
You have to approach a documentary with at least some idea of the territory of it.
Which sometimes works, but sometimes doesnt work and its a very long-winded and expensive way of doing things.
About Native Americans Thunderheartwas the movie andIncident At Oglalawas the documentary.
Equally, when youre doing a documentary, it goes back to my point about structuring something.
It was interesting to have the same material and deal with it from different points of view.
It was a strange and fearful lesson, really.
I think so, yeah.
I love him, actually.
Hes a good man, and Im glad he said that.
I think thats exactly right: watch them to find out what they do.
And attempt to mould what they do organically into what you want them to do.
Sometimes Ive had to put real people in with actors to get the actors to do it properly.
Was there a hint of that in this film?
Umm… the boys who played the Muslims were actors, but they had a real presence about them.
A certain dignity about them that I liked.
I think that helped Noomi when she was doing scenes with them.
I think actors pick it up from me instinctively, without being vain.
What I liked about Michael Douglas and John Malkovich is that they were always on the set.
They made themselves part of the process, so it is kind of a family.
Everybody is working with everybody else, and I think, instinctively, they felt that.
Sport, family, stuff like that.
Just to share things with him.
Were both sports fans, so if I find a sports fan, thats my idea of bliss.
So its to involve people emotionally, thats what I work for.
Thats a tricky thing.
I did rehearse, which was kind of ludicrous.
[Laughs] We rehearsed at Pinewood for, probably, three or four days.
Its just some way to get contact with the actors before you jump in.
It was okay on Narnia because I had the kids, and they wanted work and needed work.
With your background, what do you think of the state of the media at the moment?
Do you think theres a certain confusion between reality and fiction, with fake news and things like that?
Well, not really.
That caused me tremendous problems on theUpfilms, around42 Upor something, What the fuck is all this?
All these people earning all this money and doing reality television?
So I had to explain, Look, documentaries and reality TV arent the same thing.
And I think thats been proven true, because reality TVs become absurd.
I dont think thats a problem anymore; reality television is what it is.
To suggest that it has any deep insight into peoples psyches is long gone its pure, cheap entertainment.
But there was a period where people were asking, Is this what documentary films are?
Weve got through that.
I grew up loving European movies when I was at college.
You either spent $200m or $1m, and that took about two decades.
But now its going back to television again.
Its better than the movie industry you’re able to do more interesting things.
So everything goes in cycles.
[Laughs] You got double-whammy!
No, thats great!
Do you think that theres more of an appetite for thrillers again now?
That the mid-budget films you mentioned are making at least something of a comeback?
I think there always has been.
But it was fucking brilliant.
It was made 50 years ago, and it was as good as anything made today.
I think thrillers if you look at Hitchcock thrillers have always been good meat for cinema.
I think they survive the phases of cinema, you know?
Rififi thats what it was called.
Have you seen it?
I watched it on Netflix, funnily enough.
I was expecting to take my sons and theyd say, Oh God.
But they were completely engrossed.
And I was gobsmacked by it.
I was ashamed of myself for thinking that it would be rubbish!
Michael Apted, thank you very much.
Unlockedis out now in UK cinemas.
