A major exhibition at the Barbican explores the history of the sci-fi genre.
The big coup is doing this exhibition at the Barbican, Gyger says.
For me, thats the main thing.
Its really about science fiction: the journey it takes us on, Gyger explains.
Well, if youre from Den Of Geek!
Although I dont know if youd describe yourself as a geek.
Well, there are lots of different kinds of geeks, arent there?
Computer geeks, superhero geeks, sci-fi geeks.
The geeks are the majority.
Thats true, isnt it?
There isnt the stigma attached to being into those things that there once was.
Not only is there not a stigma, theres now exhibitions at the Barbican!
I was surprised that science fiction had become so big, so mainstream, in a way.
Its been nothing but niche for most of its existence.
Its no longer considered low culture in quite the same way.
You have mainstream novels up here, and sci-fi novels somewhere down lower.
It is still, I think.
Some people might say, What is Margaret Atwood doing in the exhibition?
Shes a good, important writer.
Thats not science fiction.The Little Prince[by Antoine de Saint-Exupery]?
What do you mean, science fiction?
Oh yeah, its about this kid from another planet.
But no, its a fairy tale, or its a childrens book or whatever.
So theres a process that is well documented.
Once something becomes recognised as good enough, its not science fiction anymore.
Like Kurt Vonnegut as well hes one of the few writers that has that mainstream respectability.
Or even, eventually, Ray Bradbury, he left that sphere.
And [JG] Ballard.
Ursula K Le Guin.
They were the prime geeks of the time.
Its a strange process.
Do you think that, in France and Europe, those geeky things were more readily accepted?
I know Philip K Dick always said he was far more respected in France than America.
That always comes up.
The letters people were sending to the editors of the pulp magazines.
Whereas in France, the conventions were very small.
But its mainstream its a mainstream audience.
Because 15, 20 years ago, it was still [niche].
What do you think about Frances contribution to sci-fi cinema?
Theres Melies, but its also Godard withAlphaville, andSavage Planet,for instance, which is amazing.
In the fringes, sometimes, its more interesting than in the mainstream.
Im sorry, but [Luc Bessons]Lucyis a disaster [Laughs].
Or, Im not a big ofThe Fifth Element,either.
Thats one of those films that has a big cult following now.
But its so noisy, visually and aurally.
TheValerianfilm will be out soon, so thatll be interesting.
Its the most expensive movie ever made in France.
Is it about $150m?
More like $250m.
I dont think a lot of people outside of France are going get it.
I havent read the comics I must say.
Theyre good, but theyre from the 70s, you know?
So I dont know if thats translated very well.
Jodorowskys Dune,yeah.
So for the exhibition, this is one thing I wasnt successful in getting.
I was trying to get the book…
Oh yeah, the storyboards.
Its about this thick, isnt it [indicates something the width of a telephone directory]?
So for rights reasons, I had to go to Jodorowsky.
And Jodorowsky wrote, saying, These should be protected as a treasure for all time, or whatever.
Something random like that it was very funny [Laughs].
Even the beginning ofContact, the first shot ofContactis that fly-through of planets and stars straight from Jodorowsky.
Whats the process of gathering all these materials been like?
Because its an eclectic exhibition, to say the least.
Whats your focus been?
Because the exhibitions on tour, so you need people who are willing to loan for that long.
Individuals, museums… so gathering hundreds of documents, really, to make something that is quite ambitious.
Its really about science fiction: the journey it takes us on.
Whats the big coup, do you think?
Whats the thing youre most pleased you managed to get hold of?
The big coup is doing this exhibition at the Barbican!
[Laughs] For me, thats the main thing.
And agreeing to do the show without having a very big artist involved.
So thats a very big thing.
The space suit from this film, or that film Star Trekor whatever.
All these create a narrative, and that narrative is in this major institution.
Thats already something in itself.
If you think about the way were connected, the things we take for granted.
I really dont think so.
I started my essay like that.
I said, we live in a world of science fiction, but not a science fiction world.
There are no flying cars, there are no Martians trying to kill us.
I mean, there are thousands of scenarios out there.
In a way, theres a suspension of disbelief.
Do you see what I mean?
I think the interesting science fiction comes and goes in waves.
In the 2000s it wasHarry Potterand all kinds of other things.
Then science fiction helps us read the world were in.
It doesnt shape the world were in, but it helps us read the world were in.
And were in a world where there doesnt seem to be many alternatives.
Its hard to be in a commune somewhere, and kind of…
Go off the grid.
Not be on the grid, not living with money.
Its very hard to imagine one.
Most people will say, Its good.
In the future, Ill have a better phone.
Or theres this new line of clothes or something like that.
So science fiction is useful now, because it opens up new perspectives.
Thats my view on why its so popular.
In 2045, or 2049, therell be a big science fiction thing.
Youve hit on what I meant, I think.
Oh, I agree with you.
Its a very strong tool to approach reality.
Or it can record what you see, like inBlack Mirror.Thats whyBlack Mirroris such an important show.
It doesnt say, This is what is going to happen, of course it talks about the present.
So thats what science fiction does today.
Like, to get here, without even thinking I used my phone to figure out the directions.
We are in a technological world, of course.
And the fact that some of it works without us makes science fiction more relevant.
The markets are controlled by algorithms and so forth.
Thats something else, too: theres so much that we dont understand.
Few of us could take a phone to pieces and fix it.
Some people could take their car apart.
I wouldnt have been able to.
But for sure, technology has become more pervasive, and invisible, I think.
Its everywhere but we dont really see it.
Generally, knowledge has branched out in many forms, and there are many sub-cultures, in a way.
you gotta be very good at precise things like repairing a phone.
There are so many components in there.
For sure, weve lost touch with the things around us.
Is that even possible to sum up?
I think it has evolved in its discourse.
The genre itself has become more popular.
It has very much followed mainstream pop culture.
So it went from the pages of magazines to paperbacks to comics to film.
Its very linked to the media.
And it has generated a huge amount of images that have influenced us generally.
So it has become a very strong force in pop culture.
Thats the first thing.
But I think its less a genre than a state of mind, science fiction.
Its the will to go beyond what you know already, in a rational way.
Trying to expand your knowledge rationally, and going to some kind of horizon.
Its the what if.
Its the what-if element, and the sense of wonder element.
Those are two very strong elements in science fiction, and theyve been there for a while.
In that sense, it hasnt really evolved that much, because that drive is still there.
Now, maybe science fiction is mixing with other genres a bit more than it used to.
Its always hard, of course, to examine something thats happening at the moment.
I dont know, as a reader of science fiction, do you see any trends?
He said, I think were finding it harder and harder to envision the future.
We cant see any further forward than tomorrow.
So I said, is that why so many visions of the future look so similar?
We havent moved beyond the visions we saw inBlade Runner.
That is something that is really striking.
Actually in my day job, Im trying to reflect on the visions of the future from the past.
This exhibition is very much about that.
What, as a study, we come up with as visions of the future.
It links to what I was saying beforehand we dont have utopian visions anymore.
Its more money, new iPhone.
In a sense, the director was right.
But I think its the role of science fiction to do that, you know?
I mean, nobody else is going to do it!
If you go withMidnight Special thats very Carpenter, very Spielberg.
I like the film, but that city that comes up at the end its not anything new.
If you takeAvatar, its Roger Dean.
I dont thinkValerianis going to bring up new images, because its also going back to the 70s.
But it happens now.
The big TV series,Stranger Things,was also reverential toThe Gooniesand whatnot, those 80s things.
Theres a lot of nostalgia about.
There is, but weve seen some good attempts… have you seenThe OA, for instance?
Ive seen the first two.
The things is, theres so much pop culture now.
You cant possibly imbibe it all.
I mean, if you look at what is released in science fiction or fantasy, its completely crazy.
A lot of its not very good thankfully, because we can have some time to do something else!
[Laughs]
Patrick Gyger, thank you very much.
Into The Unknownruns from the 3rd June to the 1st September at Londons Barbican Centre.
you’re able to find out more information and book ticketsat the Barbicans website.
