Ashes to Ashes series 3 interview: co-creator & writer Matthew Graham

He co-created Life On Mars and Ashes To Ashes.

He’s written for Doctor Who.

And he’s telling us all about the further adventures of Gene Hunt.

It’s Mr Matthew Graham…

Weve got a lot to thank Matthew Graham for.

Hes the co-creator along with Ashley Pharoah of Life On Mars and Ashes To Ashes.

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Yeah, it was a weird one.

Actually, it was borne out of a frustration that we couldnt carry on withLife On Mars.

And we didnt really have time to tie up everything in the last episode ofMars.

All we could do was tie up Sams journey to some extent.

Effectively, what we discovered with Alex Drake.

Therefore, we had a legitimate ambiguity to play.

Because, if the world is real, you might go to the same place as Sam.

We wanted to generate a new ambiguity.

But what we didnt want to do was makeAshes To Ashesjust feel likeLife On Mars.

And we thought, We have to be bold, we have to go for something different.

And if were in the 80s, and were going to be in London, lets embrace the 80s.

Lets make it more garish, lets make it more aspirational.

Lets push it and make it bright and bolder.

I thought that was inevitable.

Because everyones got something in their head.

Theyve not gotAshes To Ashesin their head, theyve gotLife On Mars.

It just feels wrong, it feels all askew.

Coming intoAsheswe had this three year plan that wed finish in three years.

The idea was to make each show progressively darker, soLife On Marswould bleed in.

Sorry, thats a long answer!

But I was expecting a certain bumpy ride from it.

But where else would you have taken Sam Tyler?

I think it would always have been a stretch.

I think wed have had to have done something very radical with series three to generate enough stories.

We wouldnt have had the ending to series two, for a start.

Wed have held that bit back.

Wed have told a different set of stories and put Sam in a different position.

Presumably, thats where series three ofAshescomes in?

This really is the Gene Hunt story, and thats the primary focus?

Yes, it is.

And its also about unifying, as much as we can,Life On MarsandAshes To Ashes.

This is whereLife On Marsreally bleeds in toAshes To Ashes.

More and more as the show goes on.

It must have been odd to write.

And now this is the bringing it full circle?

That was always the intention.

Which was very unfair, although I understand where it was coming from.

But it wasnt her, it was us.

Wed written it like that.

Its a bit of a gamble, a long investment.

But we knew it was going to pay off.

Youve talked about how the series are getting darker and darker.

Because, without giving too much away, we go very personal on all our characters.

We shine spotlights on Ray, Chris and Shaz in a way weve never done before.

On the characters we always take for granted as the peripheral characters.

So I think youre going to get a lot more revelation and a lot more of those intense moments.

And I think its the equal of anything weve done in either of the shows.

Going back to the scene before, thats your character.

The character that youve built up and invested so much in over four series.

Well, we dont hand it over and walk away.

We basically storyline the show in advance.

We know the big journeys, we know where all the big serial elements are going to come.

But we give them all the big serial moments.

We dont write them, but we present them and say these are the things youre covering.

I think we work with them.

Certainly with a writer of Marks character we dont need to do any tinkering ourselves.

We do trust him to go all the way with it.

Were very hands on, even though it doesnt say written by us.

This one Icanpin entirely on you.

You left us with an absolute bastard of a cliffhanger.

And from where were sitting at the moment, that looks like a fairly game-changing cliffhanger.

Can you offer any hints as to how you begin to address something like that?

Presumably, youve got to find a way to get us quickly to 1983?

Of course we cant be too spoilerific.

Yes, we do go back to 83.

Yes, the show isnt going to take place in 2008.

I think thatd be a bad move, and it really wouldnt work.

There will be people thinking that weve created an artificial cliffhanger, but we havent.

They are threads that are very front and centre.

Our serial stories are more front and centre than theyve ever been.

In a way, its more serial now.

There are crime stories where you have some fun, but it is a serial.

And that what theyve been saying is actually true?

I think the journey youll see, Id say denial features very heavily in Gene in series three.

But revelations come eventually.

Youre not going to see a Gene up front who walks in and says, I get it now.

We have promised answers, and we do intend to deliver answers.

Well leave some ambiguity, because I think a little bit of mystery doesnt do any harm.

You cant sit down with a blackboard and explain the whole thing like Doc Brown.

Id watch that…!

Oh, I love it!

Youre not going to go allLoston us?

[Laughs] No, I dont think so.

It was all a dream, it turns out they were all aliens.

Theres no neat way of doing it.

It is quite head-fucking.

What Im more interested in is the emotional journeys feeling correct.

And I know theyll do that.

It will all make sense.

We wont be doing aLost!

The crucial question about series three: weve had the likes of Roland Rat so far.

Are you bringing back any more 80s faces?

Theres a little bit less of the things from the 80s.

Its a little bit more now about the characters and the journeys.

I suppose its a little bit more likeLife On Marsin that regard.

There are blasts from the pasts, but we bring back blasts from our own pasts.

Therell be plenty of weird shit!

I cant, butLife On Marsfeels very integral toAshesin this last series!

How satisfying is it now to look back at the five year journey?

That its all coming to an end now, presumably with some quite powerful stuff?

Its a little bit scary.

Im delighted, and I think we all are.

But what Ive seen on screen so far and in the cutting room, Im really blown away.

This is strange stuff.

This is unusual stuff.

You dont see this on mainstream BBC One post-watershed drama very often.

Thats a good feeling I think.

But taking it very seriously.

As seriously as weve ever taken it.

There are lots of laughs in this show, but I do think there are less laughs.

Certainly in the last block of episodes.

Its much less about making us giggle.

The stakes are too high now.

People just want to see what happens to these characters, and where their journeys end.

Do you think the BBC Compliance Unit will be glad to see the back of you?

[Laughs] Yes I do, I do!

It is extraordinary some of the stuff we get away with.

Its often little things we get pulled up on.

I think therell be a few sighs of relief!

Which episodes have you written yourself in the new series?

Ive written episode one and eight.

No pressure, then!

I think I might actually leave the country for a while!

I remember seeing Ron Moore after the last ever screening.

He was crying, he was so happy.

And he was saying people are going to love it.

I thought it was brilliant, but I think there is that fear.

I might watch it from a remote location in the Arctic!

Is this building up to Gene Hunt being a Cylon then?

Is that what youre saying?

[Laughs] I tell you what, there is a line in episode five from Ray that… Youd just go, Oh shit, theyre not going to do that are they?

And we dont, but youll know the line!

Is there anything you might tell us about the project you were working on with Ron Moore?

I cant, Im afraid.

Its not a Ron project.

I cant really say what it is or who its for.

Hopefully, I will be able to one day if it every happens!

I would have loved to have worked with Ron.

Are you looking towards America next?

Weve been in and out of America.

Ive been flying to the States now for two years, working on this project.

Ive just come to the end of my contracted time on it.

And Ash and I have been developing some ideas for the States.

Its a different system, and weve been a bit frustrated by it in some areas.

Were kind of focussing on that.

Are you still involved with an Aardman Animations project?

Theyre a strange bunch.

Lovely, but they kind of want to do everything their own way.

In the end we thought we were getting in the way, really.

We stepped down from it and said, You guys really need to do it yourselves.

So, we just figured you guys just go and do it!

I have to ask aDoctor Whoquestion or two before we finish!

Presumably, getting the call that youre writing forDoctor Whois a very special moment?

It is to this day still one of the nicest jobs Ive ever done.

Working with Russell and Julie, and writing that episode, was just a joy.

Right up front Russell said, Im sorry, youve got the really cheap episode.

You cant have monsters and you cant have any spaceships.

So I knew I wasnt going to Gallifrey!

Id love to come back.

And I contacted them and said, Look, Ive got this idea for aDoctor Who.

Can I talk to you?

And they were, Yeah, yeah.

And I just couldnt make the time work, with going to the States andAshesgearing up again.

But Id love to go back and do some more.

I want to do one with monsters.

They owe me monsters!

So, do you think youre pencilled in somewhere for series six if the timing can work out?

I do, actually.

And Id love to do it.

Its a fantastic job.

A very, very nerve-wracking job.

But since Ive had an even bigger, more scary franchise to get involved with for a bit.

And now Ive got my own to look after as well!

Its a series of people handing me precious objects and saying dont drop them!

I think scripted drama is in quite a good place, actually.

Thank God that we have the likes of Peter Moffat writingCriminal Justiceand Jimmy McGovern doingThe Street.

But we really need to balance that with ourAshes To Ashes, and ourSpooks, and ourTorchwoods.

Because thats what keeps the channel looking diverse, and young as well.

I dont feel that there is a beleaguered drama department at the BBC at all.

I think theyre very energetic, very excited and take risks.

I know what you mean.

But I do think the reality thing is starting to burst now.

The figures arent quite as high as they are now.X-Factoris still massive, but thats okay.

And its still the same, isnt it?

And I didnt warm to the show in question at all.

We made a couple of crashing mistakes.

So, naturally, critics went, Its not, its stupid.

Its got killer snakes in it.

And it was very hard.

It was hard for us and were all seasoned vets.

We thought we shouldnt bother trying to do things like this.

But Ive always maintained that theres a very fine line between aBonekickersand aLife On Mars.

It doesnt take much to makeLife On Marsa very silly show.

I just want people to be brave again to walk that razors edge.

Solving crimes in a rural community.

Its the pitch meeting fromIm Alan Partridgeisnt it?!

[Laughs] *

That was it!

Matthew Graham, thank you very much!

Ashes To Ashes series 3 starts on BBC One later this month.